Stromectol (Ivermectin) is prescribed based on your body weight. Fourteen pills a day sure sounds like a lot.
Go to Google and just type in Stromectol. There should be a chart or some sort of guide on how many mg's to take daily based on your body weight.
Let us know if you're unable to find that information, but I checked Ivomec injectible recently to make sure I wasn't over-dosing to a dangerous level and it was easy to figure out how mang cc's to take based on body weight.
"I believe there is no source of deception in the investigation of nature which can compare with a fixed belief that certain kinds of phenomena are IMPOSSIBLE." -William James
at .2g/kg, and 14 - 3mg pills, that's 42mg -- I think I asked for 13 myself, so it's not necessarily a lot... Basically for a 100Kg human, it represents the "double dose" at 400ug/kg (.4g/kg) which I've seen used for canine demodecosis. I did that alternating days for two weeks a while back.
It's a lot easier just dialing in 100kg worth of equine gel on the oral dispenser ... It sure is nice that they let talking and typing horses like me type on the internets! (whinny!!) I use the google too! Just like GW... who is my ass!!
Post by questionhair on Nov 29, 2006 9:05:05 GMT -5
It's a lot easier just dialing in 100kg worth of equine gel on the oral dispenser ...
I don't use the Ivermectrin or other equine meds internally, but I just want to mention that, if you are using the large syringe shaped dispensers for the horse wormers, the safest way to use it would be to make sure the paste is mixed thoroughly.
When it is dispensed to a horse the whole tube is usually used at once. But, if you are using it in increments you want to make sure the inner contents are equally mixed.
Others have mentioned on this board that they squeeze the entire tube out and then stir it together.
Maybe it is already thoroughly mixed. I've only administered these into a horse's mouth, thus I've never seen the paste, except for bits that fell out.
Anyways..didn't know if you minded me asking you this, and that is why I pm-ed you that question.
Your weight? That is how Ivermectin is "determined" in how many to take.
If I took 14 Ivermectins...hell...that might send me to the emergency or to my grave. So you must be careful, and it's figured solely on your body weight as to how many to take.
So if I may be so bold to ask you that, then I think we can help you figure out the amount of pills to take.
((I hope you answer soon, I see you're "online" well...maybe, I know I have clicked on the "forever" I think it is called that, the "click" to always be here, which makes me too seem like I'm always here even when I'm not, but are you here now?))
That's why I do a double-dose on alternating days -- I'm 6'4" and 100kg so I end up doing about 40g every two days. Your 40g dosing daily may be a bit too much unless you weigh like 400lbs, in which case, morg is probably not your biggest problem.
Given the half-life, you can probably take all the pills at once unless they cause stomach upset or other side-effects.
For some they make you sleepy, so you might watt to take before going to bed.
Ivermectin makes me feel "good' -- better than normal good. However, that may not be the case with all people.
To be safe, you should probably start with a normal human dose of 20mg (assuming 100kg) and work your way up to 40mg on alternating days and then if you really feel like going balls-out, do 40mg daily.
FYI, I posted a lot of info about ivermectin on the 'pet meds for human morgies' thread. Of especial interest is the article on canine demodecosis -- demodex mite infection of dog hair follicles... and how ivermectin -- at double dose on alternating days for 6 months -- can cure this disease.
Moxidectin looks even more interesting and has a half-life of about 20 days. Ivermectin doesn't kill all stages of parasites so for certain disease, it needs to be taken for the entirer lengh of time an adult may stay alive... in the case of lymphatic filiarisis .. that can be 10 years. Moxidectin kills more stages so you don't need to take it for the lifetime of an adult parasite. ... it also has a half-life of 20 days ... which is why I take it once a month.
NEW APPROACHES TO THE TREATMENT OF CANINE DEMODICOSIS
Veterinary Clinics Of North America: Small Animal Practice
Manon Paradis, DMV, MScV
Canine demodicosis is an inflammatory parasitic skin disease characterized by an excessive proliferation of Demodex canis mites within the hair follicles. A complete description of canine demodicosis is beyond the scope of this article. The reader is referred to standard textbooks for detailed descriptions. This article concentrates on new therapeutical modalities in regard to this disorder; however, key points are presented to facilitate comprehension.
Canine demodicosis is classified as localized or generalized according to the extent of the disease, as the course and prognosis of the two types of demodicosis are vastly different. Canine localized demodicosis (CLD) is a benign disease, and the presence of secondary pyoderma and pruritus is rare. Most cases resolve spontaneously and uneventfully within 6 to 8 weeks. Although amitraz is approved for use in CLD in some countries (e.g., Canada), it is not a rational treatment. The use of acaricidal treatment does not seem to alter the course of CLD, and it may even favor the development of resistance. In contrast, canine generalized demodicosis (CGD) has been considered historically to be one of the most severe canine skin diseases and is one of the most frustrating diseases to treat. Although spontaneous resolution of CGD has been said to occur in up to 50% of cases in dogs less than 1.5 years of age, the prognosis for CGD is guarded. Fortunately, although euthanasia was common in the past, it is rarely necessary nowadays if a dedicated dog owner uses treatments currently available. With intense treatment (either with an approved protocol or with extralabel use of a drug), over 90% of CGD cases can be cured.
Typically, both CLD and GCD start during puppyhood, but true adult-onset demodicosis can also occur. The latter disease is even more difficult to treat than the juvenile onset CGD unless underlying immunosuppressive disease can be controlled or an exacerbating drug can be withdrawn. Most cases of CGD involve a secondary bacterial skin infection, which requires administration of systemic antibiotics for several weeks concomitantly with the acaricidal treatment.
Over the last few years, several new therapeutical options have become available for the treatment of CGD. The reported therapeutical efficacy of each drug varies greatly as a result of a number of factors, including differences in the populations studied, in the criteria used when differentiating CLD and CGD, in the way "cure" is defined, and in the length of follow-up periods. Therefore, results from various studies are not always easy to compare, but overall efficacy rates are presented and discussed.
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Systemic Macrocyclic Lactone Endectocides
ML endectocides are broad-spectrum antiparasitic agents produced by the fermentation of various actinomycetes. The dual activity of this class of compounds against endoparasites (anthelmintic) and ectoparasites (acaricide and insecticide) gave rise to the term endectocide. ML endectocides include two closely related groups of molecules: avermectins (e.g., ivermectin, abamectin, and eprinomectin) and milbemycins (e.g., milbemycin oxime and moxidectin). They essentially differ by the presence (avermectins) or the absence (milbemycin) of a disaccharide at the C13 position. Milbemycins are actually aglycone avermectins.
All ML endectocides share a similar mode of action. They bind selectively and with high affinity to the glutamate-gated chloride ion channels present in invertebrate nerve and muscle cells. This leads to an increase in the permeability of the cell membrane to chloride ions. The influx of chloride ions that follows inhibits the electrical activity of nerve cells in nematodes and that of muscle cells in arthropods, causing a rapid nonspastic paralysis and eventual death of the parasite. Compounds of this class may also interact with other ligand-gated chloride channels such as those gated by neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid. In mammals, this inhibitor neurotransmitter system is located within the central nervous system. The wide margin of safety for ML endectocides is attributable to the fact that mammals do not have glutamate-gated chloride channels; these compounds have a low affinity for other mammalian ligand-gated chloride channels and do not readily cross the blood-brain barrier.
Several studies have demonstrated an immunostimulatory effect of ivermectin in human beings and laboratory animals. Results of a recent study suggest that ivermectin does not have an immunostimulatory effect in healthy dogs, however.
Over the last decade, multiple studies have reported the efficacy of the extralabel use of ivermectin, milbemycin oxime, and, more recently, moxidectin in the treatment of CGD.
Milbemycin oxime (Interceptor; Novartis), the fermentation product of Streptomyces hygroscopus aureolacrimosus, is approved for use in dogs only as a monthly heartworm and intestinal parasite preventative at a dose of 0.5 mg/kg. Recently, several studies showed that daily administration of milbemycin oxime was effective in the treatment of CGD. The overall remission rate was quite high, but the cure rate was as low as 42% with a dose of approximately 0.5 to 1 mg/kg daily. A reported cure rate of 84.6% has been obtained following an average daily dose of 2.2 mg/kg. The median treatment duration at the higher dose was 13 weeks (range, 9-26 weeks). Side effects were uncommon, but transient stupor, ataxia, and trembling that resolved after discontinuation of the treatment have been seen in two dogs.
Milbemycin oxime is a practical and relatively safe treatment for CGD; however, it is expensive when used for this purpose. Moreover, it is possible that some Collies sensitive to ML endectocides would not tolerate daily administration of milbemycin oxime. A toxicity study with milbemycin oxime was conducted on Collies sensitive to ivermectin. Reactions typical of avermectin toxicity (e.g., depression, ataxia, mydriasis, salivation) occurred in two of five Collies treated with a single dose of 5 mg/kg and in all five dogs treated with a single dose of 10 mg/ kg. Toxicity to daily administration of a relatively high dose (e.g., 2.2 mg/kg) of this compound has not been tested in that breed.
In dogs, ivermectin (Heartgard; Merial Canada Inc., Baie d'Urfee, Quebec, Canada), the fermentation product of S. avermitilis, is licensed only for the prevention of dirofilariasis at a dosage of 6 pg/kg orally once a month. Ivermectin is widely used in dogs to treat various endo and ectoparasites, typically at dosages between 200 and 400 µg/ kg every 7 (orally) to 14 (subcutaneously or pour-on form) days for a treatment duration of up to 8 weeks. Approximately 15 years ago, various investigators used ivermectin for the treatment of CGD at a dosage of 400 µg/kg subcutaneously weekly, for a total of eight treatments, without any tangible benefit. Daily administration of milbemycin oxime was subsequently found to be effective; however, as ivermectin and milbemycin have a similar mode of action and spectrum of activity, the efficacy of ivermectin was reinvestigated using a higher dose administered daily in an adult dog with chronic CGD. This initial case report showed promising results and stimulated further research using high daily doses of ivermectin. Formulations used orally in these studies were either the 1% propylene glycol-based injectable product (Ivomec, Merial Canada Inc., Baie d'Urfee, Quebec, Canada) for cattle, sheep, and swine or the 1% equine aqueous solution (Eqvalan oral solution for horses, Merial Canada Inc., Baie d'Urfee, Quebec, Canada).
Typically, daily oral doses of ivermectin at 300 to 600 µg/kg of body weight were used in these various protocols, and, in most cases, treatment duration extended 1 month beyond negative skin scrapings. The cure rate was usually dose dependent, and ivermectin was found to be effective in up to 83.3% of dogs with CGD. Mean treatment duration varied between 10 and 18 weeks (range, 10-40 weeks). Transient side effects such as ataxia and mydriasis were seen occasionally a few days to a few weeks after initiating treatment but subsided following withdrawal of ivermectin or a decrease in the dose administered.
A starting dose of 450 to 600 µ/kg every other day has been suggested as a more cost-effective approach based on results of a recent study in which 8 of 12 dogs achieved negative skin scrapings on alternate-day therapy, with the goal of reserving daily dosing for refractory cases. Only 5 of these 12 dogs had been previously treated with amitraz, however, and the cure rate was unknown at the time of publication.
The therapeutical potential of the 0.5% alcohol-based pour-on formulation of ivermectin (Ivomec pour on for cattle, Merial Canada Inc., Baie d'Urfee, Quebec, Canada) for cattle in the treatment of chronic CGD has been evaluated in a recent study because of its presumed longer residual effect compared with that of orally administered ivermectin in dogs. Pour-on ivermectin was applied topically along the dorsal midline at 1500 µg/kg (0.3 mL/kg) three times per week for up to 6 months. Although all dogs had a substantial reduction in the severity of clinical signs and in the number of D. canis mites found on skin scrapings, only 1 of 12 (7%) dogs was cured. The treatment efficacy of the topical formulation may have been negatively affected by the fact that only 7 of 12 dogs completed the 6-month trial. In addition, it is possible that an increased frequency of administration (i.e., 1500 µg/kg every 24 hours) may be more effective. This would render the treatment less practical and similar in cost to the more convenient daily oral ivermectin treatment protocol; at a dose of 600 µg/kg, this has a reported cure rate of 83.3%, thus remaining a more effective and convenient route of administration for use in dogs.
The extra-label use of daily oral ivermectin is a relatively well-documented effective therapeutical alternative in cases of chronic CGD involving resistance or intolerance to amitraz. It is much less expensive than daily milbemycin oxime and easier to administer than daily amitraz applications. Ivermectin therapy can be initiated in several ways. Typically, a dose of 300 to 600 µg/kg daily (or every other day) is selected based on the chronicity and severity of individual cases. As with any other acaricides, dose or frequency of administration can be readjusted if mite counts do not decrease over the following weeks. It has been suggested that the bad taste of ivermectin can be masked by giving it with ice cream or in a cored hot dog.
Ivermectin is potentially toxic, however, and should be considered only if attempts with the conventional CGD treatment have failed. Idiosyncratic toxicity has been reported in Collies and other herding breeds such as Australian Shepherds, Old English Sheepdogs, and Shetland Sheepdogs, as well as in their outcrosses following a single dose as low as 100 µg/kg. These idiosyncratic toxicity reactions include ataxia, behavior disturbances, tremors, mydriasis, weakness/recumbency, apparent blindness, hypersalivation, depression, and, in severe cases, coma and death. A recessive autosomal gene may be responsible for these idiosyncratic reactions in Collies, and it is estimated that up to half of Collies are susceptible to ivermectin toxicity. Greater penetration of ivermectin across the blood-brain barrier occurs in Collies. In nonsusceptible breeds, ivermectin has a wide safety margin. In an acute oral toxicity study, the highest single oral dose without adverse effects was 2000 µg/kg. In a subchronic toxicity study, Beagles were given 500, 1000, and 2000 µg/kg orally once a day for 14 weeks. No drug-related adverse effects were seen at 500 µg/kg daily. Dogs given 1000 µg/kg or more developed mydriasis. At 2000 µg/kg, 50% of the dogs additionally lost a small amount of weight and developed tremors, ataxia, anorexia, and dehydration. One may expect that up to 10% of dogs with CGD (excluding breeds susceptible to ivermectin toxicity) treated with oral daily ivermectin at a dose ranging from 300 to 600 µg/kg may develop mydriasis and possibly ataxia within 2 to 3 weeks after initiation of treatment. The side effects usually subside within days following cessation of ivermectin administration or decrease of the dose.
Moxidectin is a fermentation product from S. cyaneogriseus. It is available in some countries as a monthly canine heartworm preventative at an oral dose of 3 µg/kg. In addition, a 1% injectable aqueous solution (Cydectin injectable solution; Ayerst) for cattle has been used successfully in cases of CGD.1 A cure rate of 89% (16/18) was obtained following daily oral administration of 400 µg/kg of moxidectin. The mean duration of treatment was 5 months (range, 3-7 months). One dog was in clinical remission but relapsed 12 months after the end of treatment. The other failure was a result of undesirable side effects (lethargy, anorexia, ataxia, and tremors) noted 3 months into treatment. Moxidectin appears to be as effective as ivermectin and milbemycin oxime. The cost of treatment is comparable to that of ivermectin but is much lower than that of milbemycin. Until more information is gathered on its toxicity in dogs, one should take the same precautions as with extra-label use of ivermectin. As moxidectin is more lipophilic than ivermectin, it should be used carefully in thin or debilitated animals. There is indeed a warning in the product information that extra care be taken with calves weighing under 100 kg to ensure that the correct dose is used, particularly if the animals are in poor condition, debilitated, or suffering from infectious diseases, because they may be susceptible to an overdose of moxidectin.
Lufenuron (Program; Novartis), a benzoylphenyl urea, is an insect development inhibitor for the cat flea Ctenocephalides felis. It acts by blocking the synthesis and deposition of chitin and is both ovicidal and larvicidal. The drug concentrates into the subcutaneous fat and is slowly released into the blood. Chitin is found in the eggshells of Demodex spp. as well as larval, nymphal, and adult exoskeletons. The efficacy of lufenuron for the treatment of CGD was recently investigated. Even at the higher dosage regimen (mean dose of 15.8 mg/kg three times a week for 2 to 3 months), it was found to be ineffective, despite the presence of high concentrations of lufenuron in the epidermis and dermis.
OTHER THERAPEUTICAL CONSIDERATIONS
Treatment of CGD must not focus only on the mites but also on concurrent bacterial pyoderma with topical therapy and systemic antibiotics as well as on identifying other problems such as inadequate nutrition, heavy parasite loads, stressful management situations, and intercurrent systemic disorders. All of these may contribute to the dog's immunosuppression and make it more difficult to resolve the demodicosis. Concurrent topical and systemic glucocorticoid. administration should be avoided. Female dogs should be spayed, as demodicosis may worsen or relapse during estrus, pregnancy, or the postpartum period. Moreover, because of the inheritable nature of juvenile-onset CGD, affected dogs and close relatives should not be used for breeding purposes.
Concurrent pyoderma is present in most cases of CGD and contributes to the dog's immunosuppression. In most cases of pyodemodicosis, the bacterial component must be addressed before topical acaricidal treatment is initiated to lessen skin irritation and to allow better penetration of the acaricidal solution.
Antibiotic selection varies from case to case and should be dictated by the severity and depth of the pyoderma. In most cases, bactericidal agents should be selected because of the probable immunosuppressed state of the dog. In addition, the antibiotic selected should achieve good concentration in the skin and have a low potential for the development of bacterial resistance. A first-generation cephalosporin (cephalexin or cephadroxil) is the antibiotic of choice in most cases of pyodemodicosis. Quinolones (e.g., enrofloxacin, orbifoxacin) are quite effective against staphylococcal infection as well as in many cases of gram-negative infections such as Pseudomonas spp., but they should not be administered to young growing dogs. A cytological examination of the exudate from draining tracts or pustules should be performed to detect the type(s) of bacteria present. Bacterial culture and sensitivity testing is often performed in the presence of deep pyoderma associated with CGD because of the possibility of mixed bacterial infections. The oral antibiotic must be administered at the proper dose and interval for a minimum of 4 weeks and for at least 2 weeks beyond complete healing of the lesions. Typically, antibiotics are administered for 6 to 8 weeks.
Topical treatment can be beneficial, especially in the initial management of CGD cases with deep draining infections and cellulitis. The hair coat must be clipped (mandatory for amitraz dips) to prevent the formation of sealing crusts and to allow topical agents to come into contact with the affected skin. Hydrotherapy (whirlpools, warm water soaks, hot packs) helps to remove crusts, decreases the number of bacteria, and promotes healing. Magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts), a mildy hypertonic drawing solution, is usually beneficial during the first few days of treatment when used at 30 mL/L of warm water in the form of soaks or hot packs. Antibacterial or antiseborrheic shampoos (e.g., benzoyl peroxide) can also be used as required.
Although new therapeutical modalities have drastically improved the prognosis for CGD, it still remains impossible to predict which cases are likely to be more recalcitrant. In articles reporting the efficacy of new therapeutical alternatives, the majority of CGD cases were chronic and amitraz resistant. Based on this, one should realize that the overall success rate obtained would most likely have been higher for typical population of dogs with CGD without this selection bias. We can estimate that 10% or less of CGD cases may never obtain a permanent cure in spite of the use of adequately followed approved treatment protocols or new extra-label alternatives.
An important cause of relapse is premature cessation of therapy. Indeed, if relapse occurs within the first 3 months after treatment has been terminated, it is most likely that the duration of therapy was inadequate (considering the 30-day life cycle of the mite, it would be difficult for a few mites to replicate to a sufficient number to cause clinical disease within 3 months). When relapses occur late (e.g., several months after treatment has been terminated), it is the dog that failed rather than the treatment protocol (in spite of our current definition of cure and failure). In any case, in this situation, cure would be unlikely with a repetition of the same protocol. The recommendation would then be to either recommence the same protocol on an intermittent basis as required for the dog's entire life, to use the same drug on a maintenance level to prevent recurrence of clinical signs, to use a more effective alternative treatment regimen if available, or to consider simultaneous topical (e.g., amitraz) and systemic (e.g., ML endectocide) treatment. Drug interaction is unlikely, as the pharmacology of these two types of drugs is different. Nevertheless, no studies have proven that simultaneous topical and systemic treatment, with its added effort and expense, is more effective or significantly shortens the overall course of treatment.
Topical amitraz is the only approved treatment for CGD; however, it is not always effective or well tolerated. Extra-label use of amitraz, milbemycin oxime, ivermectin, and moxidectin may be effective therapeutical alternatives for dogs with resistant CGD or dogs that have an intolerance to the licensed amitraz protocol. It appears that oral administration of milbemycin oxime (1-2 mg/kg), ivermectin (400-600 µg/kg), and moxidectin (400 µg/kg) daily is a practical therapeutical alternative and would provide similar cure rates. Nevertheless, milbemycin oxime is expensive, ivermectin is potentially more toxic, and only limited information is available on moxidectin. The average treatment duration with these new regimens is 4 months, with an expected range of 3 to 10 months. Treatment should be administered daily for a minimum of 3 months and for at least 1 month after a series of negative skin scrapings. For chronic cases or cases that take a relatively long time to respond to therapy, 2 to 3 months of treatment beyond negative scrapings may be more appropriate. Dogs with CGD always approach clinical normalcy weeks to months before negative skin scrapings are obtained. All dogs respond at their own rate; as long as the skin scrapings at each visit show fewer mites, the current therapy should be continued for an additional month. If the mite count starts to increase, this may suggest that the treatment protocol is not being followed or it may be that the therapy chosen was suboptimally effective. Although CGD is still a disease that is not easily treated, the prognosis for dogs with this disorder has dramatically improved in the past few years. It must be remembered, however, that the treatment alternatives for CGD described above are not approved and should not be used unless the approved therapeutical regimen has failed.
When you say your prescription is for 14 pill "a day", it sounds like you may be taking ivermectin daily. Since it stays in your body for a long time, this may not be a good way to take it. Would you clarify this for folks who are self medicating from the farm store variety? One dose every 20 days makes a lot more sense to me. Also, I doubt it is necessary to empty out tubes of horse wormer to remix this drug. I have used this (on horses) for years and never saw a tube with any separation of the paste. If you see this you need a new source.
RC: YOU KNOW BO IS A PAID DE BUNKER LOOK: HE IS ON EVERY POST, AND BASICALLY HAS RUN OFF EVERYONE HERE. HE HAS THE WORST CASE AND KNOWS EVERYTHING, ESPECIALLY HOW TO ARGUE!!!
Sept 9, 2014 19:06:44 GMT -5
THE PROOF: PROOF, is this, I will never, ever tell anyone to give unapproved animal drugs to their children until they show result or die, anyone that would do such a thing is unbalanced after you or your child would die they can argue, argue that it was your fault,
Sept 9, 2014 19:24:45 GMT -5
THE PROOF: My argument, insane drunks and drug abusers should not write babble uncontrollably about using something that may do more harm than good.
Sept 9, 2014 19:28:07 GMT -5
THE PROOF: one last item, I will debate anyone that speaks about seeing bugs as our tormentor, sorry, it is my right to be considered credible, anyone that would like to debate anything IN A ADULT MANNER I have no problem with.
Sept 9, 2014 19:31:44 GMT -5
THE PROOF: Spoiled children have no special rights, sorry, that will not get you anywhere. I expect anyone that cares about other people to make sure they STOP anyone that suggests people here poison themselves until the cows come home. BEWARE!!
Sept 9, 2014 19:38:26 GMT -5
Baraka Obam: The man suggesting treating babies and adults with unapproved animal drugs said, I AM THE WAY, he may very well be the way, the way to a very early grave or a hospital stay one can not afford. Take CARE and BEWARE.
Sept 9, 2014 23:16:25 GMT -5
Baraka Obam: Please do not take horse drugs people, no matter what this person says.
Sept 10, 2014 3:59:00 GMT -5
Bear: hello n e one here
Sept 10, 2014 15:41:26 GMT -5
itchin4answers: Hi BC Harry - I'm itchin pleased to meet you and you too BozoCrown.
Sept 17, 2014 22:40:40 GMT -5
Antisense oligos: Bio-Synthesis provides antisense oligo synthesized using DNA, 2'-O-Methyl, RNA or constrained nucleotide bases with either phosphorothioate or unmodified internucleotide bonds.http://www.biosyn.com/antisense-oligos.aspx
Sept 18, 2014 6:03:10 GMT -5
The village idiot,: Right, now can you possibly explain to us how to use these ANTISENSE OLIGOS. of course I would want the 10 base, where 2 is better than one 10 is better than 2. Throw me a bone here.
Sept 18, 2014 19:53:38 GMT -5
threader: Horse anthelmintics are about 100x more effective than antibiotics for treating the form of Morgellons I suffer from. That is counter-intuitive considering that it seems we all have lyme disease to some degree.
Sept 21, 2014 10:47:05 GMT -5