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Post by glennb on Jun 4, 2007 5:31:25 GMT -5
In light of recent findings of self replicating nano machines in the bodies of Morgellons victims living off the energy of the hosts body (symbiots), that artificial tissue or something resembling protein lattices have been found and that the Morgellons parasites appear to have antennas for receiving or transmitting on them, I found the following excerpt from the book Deeper Insights to be very interesting:
“One direction that was taken was to develop biochips and bioprocessors, that is, three-dimensional organic circuitry that functions as computers. The conductive velocities of these miniature organic computers (protein lattices) is at least one million times faster than nerve cells. The circuit power of a given size of miniature organic computers is at least one million times greater than the same size of brain matter.
Molecular computers made of living matter can be grown from DNA templates of genetically engineered bacteria. Synthetic proteins have been developed which match what they want to make into mini-computers. The end product is a bioprocessor (tiny computer) within a cell. These mini-computers are specifically linked with viruses that migrate to specific parts of the body. Viruses are primarily nucleoproteins, some of the small ones are not even alive, and they don’t even have a metabolism. They do no have a metabolism to kill with an antibiotic.
The Neurotropic viruses migrate to the central nervous system, the Dermotropic viruses migrate to the skin, the Pneumotropic viruses go to the lungs, the Viccerotropic go to the abdomen and other viruses go to other sites in the body.
Because many viruses will select what area of the body they will reside in they can tailor (in tissue culture) their bio-implants so they can target where they will end up in the mind-controlled slave. Such a virus implant is also called a symbiote, because it lives off of the host, the mind-controlled slave’s own body.
These virus implants have life expectancies a number of years long. A number of these implants within the victim serve as spies in the camp, reporting detailed records of what the hosts body is doing”
This book was published in 1997, the year most chemtrail researchers peg as the year the chemtrails first became widely noticable. The description of the research above is about NWO research that had already been done or was under way at the time.
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Post by Niels on Jun 4, 2007 9:38:15 GMT -5
In light of recent findings of self replicating nano machines in the bodies of Morgellons victims living off the energy of the hosts body (symbiots), that artificial tissue or something resembling protein lattices have been found and that the Morgellons parasites appear to have antennas for receiving or transmitting on them, I found the following excerpt from the book Deeper Insights to be very interesting: This sounds like a giant steaming load of BS. Proof please, or at least something showing that this is real, and not some fanciful worfds put to paper. If someone built a self-replicating nano machine, there'd be big news... we're millenia away from being able to do this, which is basically saying "humans have become like god" because we've made artificial life. we haven't. next!
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Post by cheetah on Jun 4, 2007 10:59:14 GMT -5
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Post by cheetah on Jun 4, 2007 11:01:55 GMT -5
By the way... We have been seeing the chemtrails around here (Utah) since early 70's...(maybe 73-74) But that's just us.....
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Post by Niels on Jun 4, 2007 12:05:33 GMT -5
there's a big difference between making "nano barcode" and makng "self replicating nano machines with embedded computers and antennas that transmit and receive information for unknown purposes."
There's a big difference between saying "we figured out how to build a nano switch" and using that nano-switch to do anything beyond demonstrating a laboratory curiosity.
theree's lots of laboratory curiosities.
the question is how do these laboratory curiosities that can't self-replicate (becauee theu're not alive and self-replicating nano-machines is a pipe dream or some hifalutin scifi verbiage in a research paper) how do the get into the "wild" and cause a worldwide epidemic.
they don't. that's what germs are for.
all this nano stuff is barking up the wrong tree.
the right tree is probably closer to 'tamtam's" ... that there's some genetically manipulated hybrids or chimera thatr did escape the lab, could self-replicate (because they were alove in trhe first place) and are in the process of causing a global pandemic.
that's my opinion. and it is my opinion that this whole nano and chemtrail stuff is a distrraction -- perhaps a purposeful one to keep people divided and conquered... to prevent fingers from pointing at the real cultprits.
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nadie
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Post by nadie on Jun 4, 2007 12:34:25 GMT -5
Thanks for all the links/sites Cheetah . They have been laying the chemtrails down here in Texas pretty heavy lately. The sky is gloudy not cloudy all day.
nadie
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Post by glennb on Jun 4, 2007 15:12:14 GMT -5
Niels, Morgellons researchers Hildegarde Staniger, PhD, RIFT-1 and Rahim Karjoo, MD, FASCP/FCAP have found self-replicating nanomachines "running wild" in the bodies of Morgellons victims. Dr. Staninger has commented on the antennas on the Morgellons parasites. The interview where Dr. Staninger and Dr Karjoo make these statements may be heard at the following link: www.rense.com/Datapages/morgdat.htmThere are several very enlightening interviews at this link by Drs Staninger and Karjoo. Interview #7 is the one with the one in question. This technology sounds so advanced that upon first hearing of it the natural repsonse is to think it must be off somewhere in the distant future when these things will be possibe. it is shocking to realize that such things are already being done and have been done for several years now. The advanced methods that have been developed for the subjugation and control of humans are truly frightening to contemplate. Much of the research has been done in secret so the general population is unaware of the dark cloud looming overhead. That those bent on controlling the world and all her inhabitants are steeped in deceit, the double mind and control through terror and subjugation of free will instead of love and compassion is an immense tragedy for the world, a tragedy beyond measure. As one can plainly see from what is unfolding before our very eyes this group has no respect for ecology, nature, the creatures of the earth, the seas and skies or the lives and suffering of human beings. it's all about amassing control, power and money and nothing else seems to matter.
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Post by skytroll on Jun 4, 2007 19:00:19 GMT -5
Niels, Do you not wonder what is in the Chemtrails? Carnicom has it documented. Do you not understand the 1990 concept of nanotubes, Carbon buckyballs, that is what is in the aerosol propellent spraying, these buckyballs do not die, like prions, do not die, in fact that could be what is used to put the electrical charge in them SUP 35, prions can be charged, oh hey, guess what, polymer was the beginning. This was done way back. Then silicon came into the scene. Where do you think they get the silica from? Where do you think they get the carbon 60 from? Where do they get the barium, the aluminum, the blood cells, the protein coats, the electrical charges are in the buckyballs, Teller, look it up, thought buckyballs was the answer to global warming, howerver, it is creating global warming. DNA is on nano level, get it? DNA helices, guess what DNA might just be made of electrical field plane and a magnetic plane, keeps it in place, if you alter either the electrical charge or the magnetic field, you are altering the DNA electrical pulses in humans, plants, and animals. This involves zero point, it involves experimentation and adaptation, it involves both Evolutionary development, novel organisms that slow change the DNA of living organisms. There is no one answer, the onslaught, is the next step in the biosynthesis of earth and its inhabitants. NANO tech is the easiest way in. It is small but it can replicate, it can self-assemble. WAKE UP, BUDDY! It is both, Tam Tam is right, Safrey is right, organisms are changing, events are happening and there is a plan on both sides. One, involving living organisms, biological, the other, the machine. Read Kurzweil, The Singularity, read Michio Kaku, read Dawkins, Hawking, then read Jay Gold, and the evolutionary developmental experiments> Then go to the Swiss Protocol and find the Lineage, How did they come up with the lineage? Example: Humans being lineage from what to us! check out the human: ............................ PSN2_HUMAN Primary accession number P49810 Secondary accession number Q96P32 Integrated into Swiss-Prot on October 1, 1996 Sequence was last modified on October 1, 1996 (Sequence version 1) Annotations were last modified on May 29, 2007 (Entry version 78) Name and origin of the protein Protein name Presenilin-2 Synonyms EC 3.4.23.- PS-2 STM-2 E5-1 AD3LP AD5 Contains Presenilin-2 NTF subunit Presenilin-2 CTF subunit Gene name Name: PSEN2 Synonyms: AD4, PS2, PSNL2, STM2 From Homo sapiens (Human) [TaxID: 9606] Taxonomy Eukaryota; Metazoa; Chordata; Craniata; Vertebrata; Euteleostomi; Mammalia; Eutheria; Euarchontoglires; Primates; Haplorrhini; Catarrhini; Hominidae; Homo. Link for above: www.expasy.org/uniprot/P49810 eukaryota: www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/alllife/eukaryota.htmlmetazoa: www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/phyla/phyla.htmlwww.ucmp.berkeley.edu/phyla/metazoasy.htmltolweb.org/tree?group=Animals&contgroup=Eukaryoteswww.palaeos.com/Invertebrates/default.htmchordata: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chordatatinyurl.com/2roysgbio.rutgers.edu/~gb102/lab_3/402m-chordata.htmlCraniata: tolweb.org/tree?group=Craniata&contgroup=Chordatatinyurl.com/2roysgVertebrata: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebratastri.discoverlife.org/mp/20q?search=AmphibiaEuteleostomi web.mit.edu/seven/src/ncbi/data/lineages.txtpir.georgetown.edu/cgi-bin/ipcEntry?id=Q0V9B6tinyurl.com/32qa4lCalcium and cadherin? calcium.uhnres.utoronto.ca/cgi-bin/cadherin/r_s_ent_nm.pl?ent_nm=Q9Y5D6Getting it Yet? How do these relate to what humans have? ..........following the lineage: MAMMALIA: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammaltinyurl.com/2xn9s4Eutheria: www.bowdoin.edu/~dbensen/Spec/Eutheria.htmlhome.arcor.de/ktd**es/baseuth.htmEuarchontoglires en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euarchontoglirestinyurl.com/2dhck2www.geocities.com/mammal_taxonomy/index.htmlPrimates: netvet.wustl.edu/primates.htmen.wikipedia.org/wiki/PrimatesHaplorrhini: lij.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplorrhinitinyurl.com/223qejCatarrhini: www.msu.edu/~heckaaro/cats.htmlwww.tolweb.org/Catarrhini/16293Hominidae: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidaewww.evolutionhappens.net/hominidae.htmtinyurl.com/fdcrfHomo: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_(genus)www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/erg.htmlNext will be the NANO and how it relates to EVO DEVO Skytroll HERE are all the MODEL Organisms; Model Organisms Statistic Model organisms have been widely used in ncRNA research. Here is a statistic table of 9 model organisms: Homo sapiens, Mus musculus, Rattus norvegicus, Drosophila melanogaster, Caenorhabditis elegans, Arabidopsis thaliana, Oryza sativa, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Escherichia coli in NONCODE. organism ncRNA number class number pfclass number specific ncRNA number average GC content(%) Homo sapiens 681 40 13 245 46.34 Mus musculus 468 31 11 54 46.34 Rattus norvegicus 50 13 8 38 47.56 Drosophila melanogaster 179 14 11 15 46.27 Caenorhabditis elegans 150 7 6 - 45.05 Arabidopsis thaliana 361 11 8 19 42.03 Oryza sativa 441 6 7 1 45.01 Saccharomyces cerevisiae 110 8 7 - 37.05 Escherichia coli 67 22 13 17 50.66 www.bioinfo.org.cn/NONCODE/analysis2.htm
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Post by skytroll on Jun 4, 2007 19:29:30 GMT -5
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nadie
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Post by nadie on Jun 4, 2007 19:57:59 GMT -5
Thank you Glennb, Cheetah and Skytroll I really enjoyed this thread today. I have some reading to do.
Thanks again.
Nadie
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Post by skytroll on Jun 4, 2007 20:08:38 GMT -5
evo devo nano nino nasties, examples of nanostuctures: Notice what scale proteins are at! Carbon NanotubesThin filmsProteins, DNASingle electron transistorsCarbon NanotubesThin filmsProteins, DNASingle electron transistors scroll down to see picture web.me.unr.edu/me372/Spring2001/Nanotechnology.pdfCNT SynthesisGrown by laser ablation, carbon arc process, and chemical vapor deposition DoE Brookhaven Lab Opens Nano Center The CFN, which will be directed by Emelio Mendez (at podium), will help scientists explore and develop nanoscale materials.The U.S. Department of Energy's Brookhaven National Laboratory in Upton, NY, held a dedication ceremony for its new Center for Functional Nanomaterials on Monday, May 21. The laboratory features state-of-the-art equipment to probe, design materials at the nanoscale. Research at the facility is aimed to develop nanoscale materials to help the country achieve energy independence. Basic research will be conducted to study the structure-property relationships in carbon nanotubes, hydrogen storage materials, novel catalysts, and electronic nanomaterials. Read more . www.nano.gov/National Nanotechnology Initiative $495 million dollars in funding NSF -$217M DoD -$110M DOE -$94M NASA -$20M DOC -$18M NIH -$36M All the names are above. Time to scrutinize them? They know all about it! Foreign Nanotechnology Research U.S. does not dominate 1997 Government expenditures U.S. -$118M Japan -$120M Europe -$122M Others -$65M nano and pharma and markets: www.nanomarkets.net/news/pr_detail.cfm?PRID=154Watch the video: aerogels? bioconvergence into nature: www.paladinpictures.com/nano.htmlmore later: skytroll
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Post by skytroll on Jun 4, 2007 20:52:15 GMT -5
quorem sensing/self=assembly assimulation short movies: www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gzt/qs/quorumsensingsim.html"In the last decade and especially after Adleman’s experiment [1] a number of computational paradigms, inspired or gleaned from biochemical phenomena, are becoming of growing interest building a wealth of models, called generically Molecular Computing. New advances in, on the one hand, molecular and theoretical biology, and on the other hand, mathematical and computational sciences promise to make it possible in the near future to have accurate systemic models of complex biological phenomena. Recent advances in cellular Biology led to new models, hierarchically organised, defining a new emergent research area called Cellular Computing. P-systems represent a class of distributed and parallel computing devices of a biological type that was introduced in [14] which are included in the wider field of cellular computing. Several variants of this model have been investigated and the literature on the subject is now rapidly growing. The main results in this area show that P-systems are a very powerful and efficient computational model [15], [16], [13]. There are variants that might be classified according to different criteria. They may be regarded as language generators or acceptors, working with strings or multisets, developing synchronous or asynchronous computation. Two main classes of P-systems can be identified in the area of membrane computing [15]: cell-like P-systems and tissue-like P-systems. The former type is inspired by the internal organization of living cells with different compartments and membranes hierarchically arranged; formally this structure is associated with a tree. Tissue P-systems have been motivated by the structure and behaviour of multicellular organisms where they form a multitude of different tissues performing various functions [2]; the structure of the system is instead represented as a graph where nodes are associated with the cells which are allowed to communicate alongside the edges of the graph." more here: www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gzt/papers/membrane.pdfwww.rense.com/Datapages/morgRSPEC.htmwww.rense.com/Datapages/morgdat1.htmwww.rense.com/Datapages/morgphotos.htmwww.rense.com/Datapages/morgvid.htmsome Russian nanotechnology: www.blog.speculist.com/archives/cat_nanotechnology.htmltechnews.acm.org/archives.cfm?fo=2002-10-oct/oct-01-2002.htmlwww.funnygadget.com/default.php?lang=en"Ambient Intelligence (AmI) stems from the convergence of three key technologies: Ubiquitous Computing, Ubiquitous Communication, and Intelligent User Friendly Interfaces. In the AmI vision, humans will be surrounded by intelligent interfaces supported by computing and networking technology which is everywhere, embedded in everyday objects such as furniture, clothes, vehicles, roads and smart materials even particles of decorative substances like paint. AmI implies a seamless environment of computing, advanced networking technology and specific interfaces. It is aware of the specific characteristics of human presence and personalities, takes care of needs and is capable of responding intelligently to spoken or gestured indications of desire, and even can engage in intelligent dialogue. ‘Ambient Intelligence’ should also be unobtrusive, often invisible: everywhere and yet in our consciousness – nowhere unless we need it. Interaction should be relaxing and enjoyable for the citizen, and not involve a steep learning curve." www.itas.fzk.de/e-society/preprints/esociety/Ducatel%20et%20al.pdfPatents: www.techlinkcenter.org/cgi-bin/techlink/patent_search_process?z_974e121c=0Synchrotron: www.esrf.eu/files/Upgrade/LTS_060706.pdfself=generating nanotubes: www.highbeam.com/search.aspx?M=Y&Q=FenniriWhat does “nano”mean?Nano mean 1 x 10-9The greek word for “dwarf”If a nanometer was magnified to the size of your nose:A RBC would equal the size of the Empire State Bldg A human hair would be about 3 miles wideA person would be as tall as 6 earths piled atopNanotechnologyaddresses the interfacebetween engineering,physical science and biology." www.uncp.edu/biotech/Nanotech_files/Nanotech.pdfIBM borrowed a process from nature to build the next generation computer chips like the way of creating seashells, snowflakes and teeth enamels. Two figures make the new chip be among the list of Greatest Creations in 2009, if there should exist the list: work 35% faster and use 15% less energy than the most advanced chips currently available. The amazing self-assembling process is: first coast a silicon wafer with self-generating polymers that create trillions of holes, which in turn create airless vacuums around nano-scale wiring. As a vacuum is the ultimate insulator for wiring capacitance, capacitance slows the speed of data transfer. To put it simply: “the resulting pattern is used to create the copper wiring on top of a chip and the insulating gaps that let electricity flow smoothly”. It’s said it’s the equivalent of two generations of Moore’s Law. IBM plans to put it in manufacturing lines two years later. www.blogowogo.com/blog_article.php?aid=734792&t=aOkay enough for now, will go back to my corner, and look for more nanos. Now we have to find the lineage of the nanos. skytroll
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Post by skytroll on Jun 4, 2007 21:09:30 GMT -5
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Post by skytroll on Jun 5, 2007 0:32:50 GMT -5
These nanomachines or particles are not alive? Virus used to make nanoparticles The virus is spherical and has a diameter of 30 nanometres UK scientists from Norwich have used a plant virus to create nanotechnology building blocks. The virus, which infects black-eyed peas, was employed as a "scaffold" on to which other chemicals were attached. By linking iron-containing compounds to the virus's surface, the John Innes Centre team was able to create electronically active nanoparticles. The researchers tell the journal Small that their work could be used in the future to make tiny electrical devices. The work is yet another example of how scientists are now trying to engineer objects on the scale of atoms and molecules. At the nanoscale, materials can be "tuned" to display unusual properties that could be exploited to build faster, lighter, stronger and more efficient devices and systems. Stores charge The mosaic virus used in the experiments infects black-eyed pea plants (Vigna unguiculata), causing their leaves to become mottled and yellow. Not infectious to humans or animals, the miniscule virus measures just 30 nanometres across - where one nanometre is a billionth of a metre. "We started to think about the virus particles as nano-building blocks," explained Dr David Evans, a chemist at the John Innes Centre and the lead author on the Small paper. "Because they have a defined size and a spherical shape, we thought they would be useful particles to use as a template or scaffold in nanotechnology." Black-eyed peas infected with the virus become mottled and yellow Usually, when chemists try to make similar-sized molecules, they find it a struggle; but the size of a virus is already predefined. After isolating a virus particle from the peas, the researchers then bound ferrocene compounds to amino acids on its surface. The team managed to attach approximately 240 of the organometallic compounds, each containing an electronically active iron atom. The addition of these compounds meant the nanoparticle became like a molecular capacitor - a device that could store electronic charge, explained Dr Evans. After further development, this could lead to the particles being used in biosensors, nanoelectronic devices, or for electrocatalytic processes. The research marks the first foray into nanotechnology for the John Innes plant science research centre. For those who need pictures, there are some plants with this and the computerized image. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4782152.stmYou have to step out of what you know, and realize where they are going with this. First, you must understand the pseudoscience of EVOP DEVO, creating novel organisms, this is changing env as we know it, because you cannot prove evolution, you can only make an organism that will represent it, but, it still will not be it. But, when people fall for the Evolution paradigm, even though not proven, then you will not see what has been done to wildlife. I see it daily, you must look, the bees look different, the bumble bees are aggressive, they never were unless you messed with them. Unusual fly/moth bugs, Unusual phorid flies with scorpion stingers Unusual plants showing up in our back yards. Never seen before. Irradically flying bugs, crash right into your face. Small flies which look like they are made of plant material and so on. How many have been altered, how many? Ponds look like slime, algae in the making. Cyanobacteria, cholorphyll. Not only the biosphere, but the atmosphere. Okay, now on with the Bacteriophages. Do you notice how they were stopped? and restarted again? "Phages have played an important role in laboratory research in the 20th century. The first phages studied were those designated type 1 (T1) to type 7 (T7). The T-even phages, T2, T4, and T6, were used as model systems for the study of virus multiplication. Alfred Day Hershey and Martha Chase used the T2 bacteriophage in a famous experiment in 1952 which supported the theory that DNA is the genetic material. Certain phages, such as lambda, Mu, and M13, are used in recombinant DNA work. The phage fX174 was the first organism to have its entire nucleotide sequence determined, a feat that was accomplished by Frederick Sanger and colleagues in 1977. Soon after making their discovery, Twort and d'Hérelle began to use phages in treating human bacterial diseases such as bubonic plague and cholera. Phage therapy was not successful, and after the discovery of antibiotics in the 1940s it was virtually abandoned. With the rise of drug-resistant bacteria in the 1990s, however, the therapeutic potential of phages has received renewed attention. " concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9011670/bacteriophagesconcise.britannica.com/ebc/art-66138Okay, once we get the concept of Bacteriophages ......... "Zinder, Norton Britannica Concise Norton Zinder born Nov. 7, 1928, New York, N.Y., U.S. U.S. biologist. He received his Ph.D. from the University of Wisconsin. He discovered genetic transduction (the transfer of genes from one type of microorganism to another by an agent such as a bacteriophage) in Salmonella bacteria. Using this transduction, later researchers were able to show that bacterial genes affecting certain physiological processes were grouped together in what are now known as operons. His experiments also led to the discovery of the first bacteriophage that contained RNA as its genetic material. " Somehow the DOE gets involved in this? "Studies were made on the effects of di(2-chloroethyl)methylamine on bacteriophage T2 and E. coli strains B and B/r. The procedures adopted and the results afforded are reported. Five main conclusions were drawn: immediately after infection of the cell the phage material offers a more resistant target to HN2 than does the extracellular phage; the first 2 or 3 min after infection there is a small increase in sensitivity; a striking increase in resistance occurs around the 8th min together with a change in form of the survival curves to a multi-hit type; thereafter, though the curves remain multi-hit a second increase in sensitivity is manifested; there is a component of the infected cell population that shows a high degree of resistance at all times. The first two results are attributed to changes in the geometrical form of the phage deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) consequent upon its extrusion into the cell from the phage head; it is also considered that the early transient increase in sensitivity might be associated with the formation of a DNA--RNA complex. The third result is attributed to DNA replication, which is known to occur at this time, thus providing a multiplicity of target, though it is not known if multiplicity reactivation takes place. The fourth result is thought likely to be the consequence of the condensation of phage DNA into discrete units having the same geometry as that of the fully formed phage. No explanation is currently offered for the occurrence of highly resistant complexes. (P.C.H.)" www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=4113170skytroll
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Post by skytroll on Jun 5, 2007 0:37:56 GMT -5
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Post by janedough on Jun 5, 2007 0:58:59 GMT -5
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Niels on Jun 5, 2007 11:39:13 GMT -5
These nanomachines or particles are not alive? Virus used to make nanoparticles ... Viruses are not considered to be "alive" by themselves. They're considered a "degenerate" form of life because they need to use existing cells to replicate. The most "sensible" approach from a scientific standpoint to "manufacturing" nanotechnology is to use genetically-manipulated viruses to "hijack" the protein production of existing cell-lines, so as to create the complex molecules and structures that comprise nanotech. This is just "software reuse" from a geneticists perspective. Why reinvent the wheel when nature has already provided the framework to manufacture these complex chemicals. Hoeever, there's a big difference between viruses and "alive" The nanotech produced is not a "machine" it is a complex molecule. That complex molecule cannot replicate directly, therefore it is not alive. The "complex molecule" could actually be a virus... so one can imagine "viral nanoparticles" along with DNA that it could inject into an existing cell-line for the purpose of replication. I don't think they're "there" yet, and even if they were, it would represent a genetically mutated virus, which though potentially evil, is not by itself "alive." I do agree that pandora's box is being opened by this kind of research. I do agree that scientists have a lot of hubris and self-confidence in thinking they "know it all" when in reality their world-view is based on "limiting interacting variables" and "throwing out irrelevant information" in their chase after the perfect "scientific method." The problem is that the devil is always in the details. Problems always arise form the "assumptions" that allow oversimplification for the purpose of reducing the number of variables that need to be controlled out of an experiment so that they can focus on simple cause->effect. Unfortunately, nature is all about complexity, hidden variables, emergent properties of seemingly disorganized mass-randomness, etc. And this is usually where scientists usually screw up. By "blindering" themselves and eliminating variables that might "screw up" their experiments, they also create science that has unexpected effects. For example, i'm sure the scientists that put BT into genetically modified crops... they probably ran all sorts of experiemtns proving that aninals can eat these crops w/o any ill-effect. But they probably "forgot" to look into the hidden variables of crop growth -- for example, the pollination of bees, the transfer of "DNA" by these bees from one crop to another, and the potential that the "genetically modified pollen" would have a deleterious effect on the bee population. Part of the problem is that science SHOULD NOT be done by private industry. It should be conducted by centralized government labs, with significant public, congressional and press oversight. Science needs democratization and checks and balances. This is no longer occurring because most science happens in private industry and violates all the principles of good science in chasing profit. Private industry is based on greed, secrecy, hiding or covering up details that could lead to a reduction in profits, and rushing science w/o all the checks and balances that normal OPEN scientific inquiry can provide. Thus the "science" produced today is fundamentally faulty in that good science depends on an open interchange of ideas, peer-review of other scientific work in the daylight of public discourse, being open to showing and reporting experimental failures just as much as touting experimental success. That simply doesn't happen when profit is the bottom line to science. The real bottom-line to science is not profit but the open interchange, dissemination, debate about knowledge without the cancerous effect on these fundamentals provided by greed, quarterly profits, and secrecy and industrial competition. SO instead of blaming scientists... we need to be blaming the rotten consumerist, competitive, product-driven society we live in for permitting scientific atrocities to happen, all in the name of greed and profit. One of these days, somebody's going to wake up and realize that the "american way" is rotten to the core, and that consumerism, capitalism, competition, greed, and privatization are the root of all evil.
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Post by skytroll on Jun 5, 2007 12:02:00 GMT -5
Niels, You said, "Part of the problem is that science SHOULD NOT be done by private industry. It should be conducted by centralized government labs, with significant public, congressional and press oversight. Science needs democratization and checks and balances. This is no longer occurring because most science happens in private industry and violates all the principles of good science in chasing profit"...
What I am saying [glow=red,2,300]is is is THE GOVT [/glow]that is doing this in their labs, in collaboration with private industry, and universities, herein lies the problem. The DOE is involved in the GENOME. They financed Celera a private industry, they make synthetic genes, and the control is in the DOE.
Tell me this, what does energy have to do with the genes of humans and other animals? I am not talking about oil, using corn for gas, using plants for gas, using bioremediation for gas, use cow poop for gas, Come on. There is much govt money, just as Russia did, years ago in Scaler tech, in the free energy, why would DOE let people have free energy. It will not be free. That is one area. The other is how energy/genes work together. Centralized govt. wants us all to have medical microchips. What will be in those? Semiconductors, transisters, energy control of human beings, by way of gene control. Think on that one for a while.
Who has most of the money involved in the genome? Not just our country, better look at what other countries are doing in collaboration with DOE and other govt. energy and earth control factions in other countries, especially an old ally, England, and now the EU. And yes, it is based on money, in collaboration with business.
Where do you buy your carbon credits from? A private industry mandated by govt., maybe not our govt. but World Govt.
This is the problem.
Centralized govt is Communism, that is what America is not about.
America is about private industry, ideas, inventions, that govt overseas, but, does not contribute to or control or finance. That is why Universal Healthcare is not a good idea. It is not private industry, that causes this, it is Governmental regulation that has turned to control. Do you want the govt. in all it's coverups to control your very health?
Seems they cannot tell the difference between regulation and control by our tax dollars.
You do away with the tax system, the govt has no control, the people do.
It is the collaboration, which is a big word for centralized govt. control.
Collaboration, Regulation, Control.
Skytroll
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Post by skytroll on Jun 5, 2007 12:23:11 GMT -5
Tell me this. What is the purpose of Bacteriophages? To eat bacteria, therefore they are alive. But, it is the virus, that is used for gene therapy, however the same technique was to be used to spray on meat, and this was stopped, because, the virus causes the disease.
The real science, is showing that most diseases are caused by viruses, not DNA. The only way genes are cause of disease, is because a mutation ocurred. Bacteriophages put a virus in the body, can be latent, but with biofilms forming because of all the bacteria in the air, you have no idea what bacteria this bacteriophage will attack. They are finding that by using viruses for gene therapy, the virus can kill the patient. The disease caused by the mutation in the first place is not considered. It is the mutation that causes the gene to malfunction.
I think a good look at what causes mutations, which involves cancer too, is where stopping diseases will start.
Mutations are caused by chemicals, viruses that cross the gene barrier, hence setting the stage for cascading of unfolded proteins, that is what muscular dystrophy is about. The proteins, dystrophin leaves the body, and it is in the fibers, not the muscle itself, the fibers unfold, fibers are DNA, they are protein, nanos are on a protein level. If one alters the proteins in food, it is eaten, the body has to adapt. If the body cannot process the protein because it was never meant to process certain kinds, then the body will not function as it is supposed to. So, it is about adaptation to proteins introduced into the body, that will alter DNA. What is the purpose to alter DNA? Who wants control of your very DNA?
Okay, back to my nano corner.
Skytroll
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Post by skytroll on Jun 5, 2007 12:29:18 GMT -5
By the way, Niels,
I enjoy this battering back and forth. I think this is good idea swapping and good fodder for the thinking brain. You have some good points there, but, if we can keep We the people, up front and center, we will get somewhere, That is what Democracy is. A full accounting of ideas, and a hashing out of ideas, but, in a public forum.
The problem is, so much is being done in secret, by govt. and the World Govt. This leaves WE THE PEOPLE at a disadvantage, no one is listening to the people, it is all TOP DOWN, not BOTTOM UP, from the groundswell of the people, when govts. lose this concept, then they have ulterior motives, for absolute control.
That is not Democracy!
Hope the Democrats think this through. And the Republicans listen to Ron Paul. And the people decide if they want Communism/communitarianism,(same thing) or do they want Democracy. A Democracy is housed in a Republic. That is what made Jefferson and Washington actually get along, actually agree on something.
Skytroll
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