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Post by skytroll on Apr 12, 2008 23:36:49 GMT -5
I wonder if anyone could answer this? Seems we started with this, then we put it on the back burner. I believe this seems to touch on some of the aspects of Morgellons. This is another look at it. But, maybe with different eyes, considering all that we have learned about so many symptoms of this syndrome. This may be what links this into the junctions that can cause the beginning damage. "Mycoplasma - The Linking Pathogen in Neurosystemic Diseases- 2001 Nexus www.whale.to/m/scott7.html (How the DNA works is in the text under the references - see the web page) MYCOPLASMA The Linking Pathogen in Neurosystemic Diseases Several strains of mycoplasma have been "engineered" to become more dangerous. They are now being blamed for AIDS, cancer, CFS, MS, CJD and other neurosystemic diseases. Donald W. Scott MA, MSc. Ó 2001 Nexus Magazine Aug 2001 I - PATHOGENIC MYCOPLASMA A Common Disease Agent Weaponised How the Mycoplasma Works II- CREATION OF THE MYCOPLASMA A Laboratory-Made Disease Agent Crystalline Brucella Crystalline Brucella and Multiple Sclerosis Contamination of Camp Detrick Lab Workers III — COVERT TESTING OF MYCOPLASMA Testing the Dispersal Methods Testing via Mosquito Vector in Punta Gorda, Florida Testing via Mosquito Vector in Ontario IV - COVERT TESTING OF OTHER DISEASE AGENTS Mad Cow Disease/Kuru/CJD in the Fore Tribe Testing Carcinogens over Winnipeg, Manitoba V - BRUCELLA MYCOPLASMA AND DISEASE AIDS Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/ Myalgic Encephalomyelitis VI-TESTING FOR MYCOPLASMA IN YOUR BODY Polymerase Chain Reaction Test Blood Test ECG Test Blood Volume Test VII- UNDOING THE DAMAGE I - PATHOGENIC MYCOPLASMA A Common Disease Agent Weaponised There are 200 species of Mycoplasma. Most are innocuous and do no harm; only four or five are pathogenic. Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain) probably comes from the nucleus of the Brucella bacterium. This disease agent is not a bacterium and not a virus; it is a mutated form of the Brucella bacterium, combined with a visna virus, from which the mycoplasma is extracted. The pathogenic Mycoplasma used to be very innocuous, but biological warfare research conducted between 1942 and the present time has resulted in the creation of more deadly and infectious forms of Mycoplasma. Researchers extracted this mycoplasma from the Brucella bacterium and actually reduced the disease to a crystalline form. They "weaponised" it and tested it on an unsuspecting public in North America. Dr Maurice Hilleman, chief virologist for the pharmaceutical company Merck Sharp & Dohme, stated that this disease agent is now carried by everybody in North America and possibly most people throughout the world. Despite reporting flaws, there has clearly been an increased incidence of all the neuro/systemic degenerative diseases since World War II and especially since the 1970s with the arrival of previously unheard-of diseases like chronic fatigue syndrome and AIDS. According to Dr Shyh-Ching Lo, senior researcher at The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology and one of America’s top mycoplasma researchers, this disease agent causes many illnesses including AIDS, cancer, chronic fatigue syndrome, Crohn’s colitis, Type I diabetes, multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s disease, Wegener’s disease and collagen-vascular diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and Alzheimer’s. Dr Charles Engel, who is with the US National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland, stated the following at an NIH meeting on February 7, 2000: "I am now of the view that the probable cause of chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia is the mycoplasma..."I have all the official documents to prove that mycoplasma is the disease agent in chronic fatigue syndrome/fibromyalgia as well as in AIDS, multiple sclerosis and many other illnesses. Of these, 80% are US or Canadian official government documents, and 20% are articles from peer-reviewed journals such as the Journal of the American Medical Association, New England Journal of Medicine and the Canadian Medical Association Journal. The journal articles and government documents complement each other. How the Mycoplasma Works The mycoplasma acts by entering into the individual cells of the body, depending upon your genetic predisposition. You may develop neurological diseases if the pathogen destroys certain cells in your brain, or you may develop Crohn’s colitis if thepathogen invades and destroys cells in the lower bowel. Once the mycoplasma gets into the cell, it can lie there doing nothing sometimes for 10, 20 or 30 years, but if a trauma occurs like an accident or a vaccination that doesn’t take, the mycoplasma can become triggered. Because it is only the DNA particle of the bacterium <snipt> This might have be valid. The only thing I see that CFS is part of is EBV, which was used for recombinations, as was CMV or the Polio virus, the SMV(Simian Virus) These are part of constructs used as viral vectors to alter DNA for a desired effect. So, to know the difference between constructed organisms carring the viral component, reengineering DNA, transformaing DNA or creating a bioweapong to zero in on specific DNA would or could possibly be done by Genetic testing. Like that idea. Lets all get genetic testing. Our genes will tell us what has been altered, re engineered, transformed or/and what viral component was introduced by the viral agent - bacteriophage - into the human body. Seems Brucella has been mentioned a few times. Skytroll
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Post by cheetah on Apr 13, 2008 0:51:21 GMT -5
Texas mycoplasma prison experiments... tinyurl.com/4zu2hpwww.google.com/search?q=mycoplasma+texas+prison+experiments&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GZFB_enUS264US264 I have talked about this several times on this board and have said when I was living in Texas and yes pouring acids at that place called Advanced Micro Devices...these experiments had been on going for several years and it seemed like to me that it was said that they had been doing them for about ten years...Seems like one report talked about how it would take years to clean up ... That is when I first started getting head lesions... and then the itching and the aches and so on....1985-1986
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Post by skytroll on Apr 13, 2008 1:18:35 GMT -5
Now, are these facts somewhere in Dr. Wymore, Citovsky, Staninger, Harvey, Martin studies?
Has anyone been tested for Mycoplasma?
SKytroll
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Post by cyn on Apr 13, 2008 1:57:12 GMT -5
Yes, still have the original few reports on my desktop that convinced me.
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Post by Jill on Apr 13, 2008 6:00:52 GMT -5
Never been on my back burner, Skytroll- I've been posting about this for years. Learned about it on the old board- I asked Mark Darrah if he sees it in the fibers- he said he will look but the cell wall deficient pathogen is hard to spot. For all of us who have been around for years- the Mycoplasma Fermentans Incognitus is a given. www.whale.to/vaccine/cantwell2.html excerpt: The experiments (Dr Lo) at the prison in Huntsville, Texas were well documented on this board and had been on the old board: Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus) has been tested on the Texas Department of Corrections prisoners in the late 1980s prior to the Gulf War. It was tested on death row inmates as well as other inmates in Huntsville, Texas. The guards then contracted it from the inmates, and the guards then gave it to their families and community. This mycoplasma vaccine testing was funded by the U.S. Army, and today there is an outbreak of 350 people in the Huntsville area with a strange disease resembling GWS. end excerpt More: Before the Gulf War the mixing of the AIDS virus (HIV) with mycoplasmas in the laboratory by Lo and Montagnier was recorded in the scientific literature. When mycoplasma was added to HIV-infected blood cells in test tubes, it made the AIDS virus more pathogenic. Silver-leaf monkeys experimentally infected with Lo’s mycoplasma all developed infections, immunosuppression, and died within 7 to 9 months with an AIDS-like “wasting syndrome.” A “Mycoplasma Workshop,” sponsored by The National Institutes of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, was held in San Antonio, Texas, in December 1989. Lo’s research was featured. When asked if his fatal mycoplasma “flu cases” were contagious, Lo replied, “We don’t know.” Interestingly, some of Lo’s patients improved with the antibiotic doxycycline, the same drug Nicolson has found effective in some cases of GWS. end excerpt this probably explains it best- good article to READ: nexusmagazine.com/articles/mycoplasma.htmlThey had produced a crystalline bacterial toxin extracted from the Brucella bacterium. The bacterial toxin could be removed in crystalline form and stored, transported and deployed without deteriorating. It could be delivered by other vectors such as insects, aerosol or the food chain (in nature it is delivered within the bacterium). But the factor that is working in the Brucella is the mycoplasma. Brucella is a disease agent that doesn't kill people; it disables them. But, according to Dr Donald MacArthur of the Pentagon, appearing before a congressional committee in 1969,4 researchers found that if they had mycoplasma at a certain strength--actually, 10 to the 10th power (1010)--it would develop into AIDS, and the person would die from it within a reasonable period of time because it could bypass the natural human defences. If the strength was 108, the person would manifest with chronic fatigue syndrome or fibromyalgia. If it was 107, they would present as wasting; they wouldn't die and they wouldn't be disabled, but they would not be very interested in life; they would waste away. end excerpt
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Post by Jill on Apr 13, 2008 6:27:49 GMT -5
Some (from the old board) were tested- Garth Nicholson- does the testing: www.lightparty.com/Health/Nicholson.html However- IMO- the test is not needed because: * everyone has the pathogen: Dr. Maurice Hilleman, Merck's current chief virologist, stated recently that the Brucella pathogen is now carried by everyone in North America and possibly the world. www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/mycoplasma.htmlDr Charles Engel, who is with the US National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland, stated the following at an NIH meeting on February 7, 2000: "I am now of the view that the probable cause of chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia is the mycoplasma..." www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/mycoplasma.htmlDr. Maurice Hilleman, Merck's current chief virologist, stated recently that the Brucella pathogen** is now carried by everyone in North America and possibly the world. www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/mycoplasma.html**Researchers extracted this mycoplasma from the Brucella bacterium and actually reduced the disease to a crystalline form. They "weaponised" it and tested it on an unsuspecting public in North America. We know the Brucella bacterium as Mycoplasma Fermentans Incognitus (the Incognitus means MAN MADE) Dr Lo- being the man that made it- patent to follow
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Post by Jill on Apr 13, 2008 6:29:57 GMT -5
www.mycoplasmasupport.org/Web_pages/Lab/lab_testing.htmMycoplasma's are intracellular organisms that are extremely small, have pleomorphic characteristics (change shape and structure), lack rigid and distinctive cell walls and have unusual growth cycles and growth requirements (a semi-hibernation state for prolonged periods). This makes testing for Mycoplasma's much harder and more complicated than testing for all other bacteria. Because the Mycoplasma is intracellular, the immune system does not readily produce antibodies (proteins made by a white blood cell as a primary defense against foreign substances, like IgG, IgM, etc). An antibody response has been demonstrated, but usually not until the disease has progressed. Accurate diagnosis of Mycoplasma is complicated because mycoplasma is one of the few major bacterial pathogens of humans that can not be cultivated in vitro (or outside the body-- grown on a culture dish). Because of their extremely fastidious nature and the lack of reliable means for cultivation on artificial media, detection of these Mycoplasmal organisms rests primarily with molecular techniques. The most reliable molecular technique offered today is with a lab test called a PCR test (Polymerase Chain Reaction). PCR, one of the most significant advances in DNA and RNA-based technologies, is a powerful tool enabling laboratories to detect a single gene of an infectious agent in any body fluid with improved accuracy and sensitivity . However, performing a PCR lab test on a standard whole blood sample may not even find the Mycoplasma, simply because it may be residing in other fluids and tissues in the body and not the blood (i.e.; the fluid in the joints, in the spinal fluid, or in any tissue cell or organ). A PCR test is usually done to detect each Mycoplasma species. These individual laboratory tests can be expensive, but are insurance reimbursable if ordered by your primary care physician. These ultra-sensitive and ultra-specific Mycoplasma PCR tests can only be done by a small number of laboratories, and most university or government labs that have been specifically trained under a U.S. government contract. MYCOPLASMA PATHOGEN SPECIES Mycoplasma fermentans incognitus Mycoplasma pneumoniae Mycoplasma hominis Mycoplasma genitalium Mycoplasma penetrans Ureaplasma urealyticum (Created 7/1/05 by Sharon Briggs)
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Post by Jill on Apr 13, 2008 6:32:39 GMT -5
Treatment: VII - UNDOING THE DAMAGE The body undoes the damage itself. The scarring in the brain of people with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia will be repaired. There is cellular repair going on all the time. But the mycoplasma has moved on to the next cell. In the early stages of a disease, doxycycline may reverse that disease process. It is one of the tetracycline antibiotics, but it is not bactericidal; it is bacteriostatic--it stops the growth of the mycoplasma. And if the mycoplasma growth can be stopped for long enough, then the immune system takes over. Doxycycline treatment is discussed in a paper by mycoplasma expert Professor Garth Nicholson, PhD, of the Institute for Molecular Medicine.15 Dr Nicholson is involved in a US$8-million mycoplasma research program funded by the US military and headed by Dr Charles Engel of the NIH. The program is studying Gulf War veterans, 450 of them, because there is evidence to suggest that Gulf War syndrome is another illness (or set of illnesses) caused by mycoplasma. www.nexusmagazine.comExtracted from Nexus Magazine, Volume 8, Number 5 (August-September= 2001)
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Post by Jill on Apr 13, 2008 7:39:39 GMT -5
www.rense.com/general3/chemill.htmWhat they found was a living Mycoplasma pathogen. In order to find this organism, they had to break open the leukocytes (white blood cells), and perform a specific test called a Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) of the DNA of the organism. Nancy also perfected another test, called Gene Tracking, which confirms the PCR results. To gather more information, they then started testing other GWI patients. What they found was that approximately 50% were positive for the live organism. The Nicolson's then researched treatment options and found a number of antibiotics that were effective against the organism. (2) After a lengthy course of antibiotics, they recovered. But, the word was out, and requests for testing of GWI patients kept coming in to the lab. They were inundated! As their evidence mounted, they published their data (3) (4) (5) and testified before the President's Panel on Gulf War Illnesses. (6) Then the connection was made by the government of the similarities between GWI and CFIDS. (7) By this time, the Nicolson's lab was already running tests of those with CFIDS---with the same results-- approximately 50% positive! Garth and Nancy Nicolson even wrote an article for the CFIDS Chronicle outlining the diagnosis and treatment of GWI/CFIDS. (8)
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Post by skytroll on Apr 13, 2008 7:47:40 GMT -5
Now, if you were going to build a cell, and Venter started with the mycoplasma genitalium, so those experiments would have proven that mycoplasma is a good thing to start with and has to work with the plasmids. This is what I am getting at: "Human Genome News, July-September 1996; 8:(1) Third Branch of Life Confirmed Researchers Present Archaea Genome Sequence In a major scientific breakthrough, a team of DOE-funded researchers reported in the August 23 issue of Science (273, 1058-73) that they had sequenced the first complete genome of a microorganism that confirms the existence of the third major branch of life on earth [see HGN 7(6), 12-13]. For the first time, researchers can trek boldly across uncharted terrain to make large-scale comparisons among the three domains of life at the genomic level. Researchers from The Institute for Genomic Research (TIGR); University of Illinois, Urbana (UIU); and Johns Hopkins University presented the sequence for Methanococcus jannaschii, a member of the Archaea domain of life. The other two major life groups are prokaryotes (bacteria) and the more complex eukaryotes, which include plants, animals, and humans. "This brings to closure the question of whether Archaea are separate and distinct life forms," said Craig Venter (TIGR). "In decoding the genetic structure of Archaea, we were astounded to find that two-thirds of the genes do not look like anything we've ever seen in biology before." According to the Science paper, only about 38% of M. jannaschii genes match a gene with a known cellular function already entered in sequence databases. Comparisons also were made with genes found in the genomes of the other two complete microbial genomes sequenced by TIGR, those of Mycoplasma genitalium and Haemophilus influenzae. More extensive gene comparisons will help scientists better understand the evolution of all three branches of life. Early analysis points to a closer shared evolutionary heritage for the Archaea and eukaryotes. This is particularly evident in the genes controlling information processing: transcription, translation, and DNA replication. Features shared with bacteria include the lack of a nucleus and strongly similar metabolic genes. "We can look at the Archaea as the living fossils of our prokaryotic [bacterial] ancestors," observed Carl Woese (UIU). Random Sequencing Strategy Sequencing of the 1.7-Mb M. jannaschii genome, which consists of three distinct genetic elements, was completed by a team led by Carol Bult (TIGR) in just over a year. Researchers applied a whole-genome random approach, using both a small-insert (2.5-kb average) plasmid library and a larger-insert (16-kb average) lambda library. All clones were sequenced from both ends, with the lambda library used to verify contigs built from assembled plasmid sequences. Data, including double the number of genes and proteins previously known for Archaea, are available on the Web. Fulfilling a DOE Mandate DOE and its predecessor agencies have a long history of support for genetic research growing out of their legislative mandate to understand the health effects of nuclear energy and radiation and the byproducts of other forms of energy production. DOE funded the Archaea research as part of its Microbial Genome Program (MGP), a complementary project to the Human Genome Program. MGP is headed by Jay Grimes of the DOE Office of Health and Environmental Research (darrell.grimes@oer.doe.gov). Begun in 1994, MGP's goal is to sequence microorganisms of interest to DOE's energy and environmental cleanup programs. M. jannaschii is the second genome completed in MGP. The first, M. genitalium, is a bacterium thought to be the simplest known self-replicating and free-living life form. With a genome of just 580 kb, it provides researchers with a model for the minimum number of genes and protein products necessary for independent existence. MGP Research Providing Clues to Understanding Genetics Private companies, universities, and DOE laboratories are now sequencing an additional ten microbial genomes for MGP, including that of the most radiation-resistant life form ever found. This organism, Deinococcus radiodurans, was first discovered in spoiled beef thought to have been sterilized by radiation. The microbe is potentially useful for cleanup of radioactive wastes as well as for adding to the understanding of sensitive enzymes - responsible for monitoring and repairing damage to DNA caused by radiation and other environmental agents. Completely Sequenced Genomes (Does not include viruses.) * Haemophilus influenzae (bacterium), 1.9 Mb * Mycoplasma genitalium (bacterium), 0.58 Mb * Methanococcus jannaschii (Archaea), 1.7 Mb * Saccharomyces cerevisiae (eukaryote), 12 Mb www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/publicat/hgn/v8n1/01archae.shtmlThis is where the myco and the archaea come in, so what it tells us this was all part of the plan. To prove archaea can be introduced right into other things and meanwhile proving that is part of the 3 kingdoms of life. Microbial Genome Sequencing M. jannaschii Carol Bult [The Institute for Genomic Research (TIGR)] described the whole-genome shotgun-sequencing strategy used to obtain the complete genomic sequence of M. jannaschii, an organism first isolated from a deep-sea hydrothermal vent in 1982. This genome is the first to be completed from the Archaea domain of life, a group of unique microbes that are genetically distinct from both bacteria and eukaryotes. The Archaea, which include methanogens, thermoacidophiles, and extreme halophiles, may represent some of the earliest forms of living cells. Bult identified several aspects critical to the group's success. These factors include the availability of a random genomic 2.5-kb-insert plasmid library from Gary Olsen (University of Illinois)and a representative 20-kb-insert lambda library for building a genome scaffold; high-quality sequence data from both ends of the plasmid and lambda clones (using ABI 373 and 377 automated sequencers with fluorescent technologies); and a robust sequence fragment assembly engine (TIGR Assembler, discussed below by G. Sutton). Sequence coverage was obtained for the entire genome. Bult emphasized the importance of tightly integrating data production with tools for managing and analyzing data. Sequence annotation is now complete, and all data and clones will be available by early summer (see TIGR WWW page, www.tigr.org/). www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/publicat/hgn/v7n6/12seq.shtmlWhat I am saying is the archaea, the was brought in plasma important here, so to construct a 'novel organism" using Archaea, which was not known and say it is part of the evolution of man and then to clone it? The methanogens have kerogens in them, biomineralizations in deep sea floor, where the Archaeal mat belongs not in humans. So, this verifies that Venter accepted Woese's 1967 claim that Archaea is one of the three kingdoms of life, now what does it do to humans, was not in the human gene pile at all. But, it does prove you can take a one celled organism and by use of llambda phages, mycoplasma and archaea you can create what you are claiming. Where the problem arises for humans, is that these do not belong in human genes. Archaea work hand in hand with kerogens. There are 12 elongation factor transcriptions factors involving Human Archaeal and Bacterial transcriptions. next link: where B. subtilis comes in. Archaea is ancient DNA. Skytroll
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Post by Jill on Apr 13, 2008 8:27:47 GMT -5
another lab that tests for Mycoplasma: www.clongen.com/mycoplasma_testing_services.phpPCR for detection of long list of Mycoplasma, Ureaplasma and Acholeplasma species (Test 131, Price: $109) Or the Cell Culture-based assay (Test CB114) Background Information for patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, or gulf war syndrome : This is an excerpt taken from an article posted online by Dr. Garth Nicolson: ".......If certain microorganisms are associated with chronic illnesses, is there any evidence for microorganism infections in CFIDS, FMS, GWI or RA patients? The answer is YES. In ~60% of CFIDS, ~70% of FMS and ~50% of GWI and RA patients examined we and others, principally Dr. Daryl See, formally of the University of California College of Medicine, Irvine, and Eli Mortechai of Medical Diagnostics of New Jersey, are finding strong evidence for mycoplasmal blood infections that can explain much if not most of the chronic signs and symptoms found in these patients. In our studies on GWI, a CFIDS-like illness [4], we have found mycoplasmal infections in the blood of about one-half of over 200 patients, and these patients were found to have principally one infectious species of mycoplasma, M. fermentans [4-6]. However, in about 60% of the >200 civilians with CFIDS and FMS that we have examined we are finding a variety of pathogenic mycoplasma species, such as M. fermentans, M. penetrans, M. pneumoniae, M. genitalium, M. pirum and M. hominis, in their white blood cells [6]. The tests that we use to identify mycoplasmal infections, Forensic Polymerase Chain Reaction and Nucleoprotein Gene Tracking, are very sensitive and highly specific. These tests are a dramatic improvement over the relatively insensitive serum antibody and other tests that are currently being used to assay for systemic infections." ** Full circle- all roads lead to this
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Post by Orion*** on Apr 13, 2008 8:58:44 GMT -5
This has always been high on my list of suspicions... O***
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Post by godsgrace on Aug 7, 2008 11:20:15 GMT -5
sky, Jjjill...remember this?
just found it while searching for mycoplasma/morgellons.
let's keep looking...the answer is there!
gg
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Post by skytroll on Aug 7, 2008 13:17:51 GMT -5
vietsciences.free.fr/khaocuu/nguyenlandung/archaea.htmIf we see what Woese did, we can find it> M. jannaschii He wanted to start a cell from scratch: THese four: What did Venter start with? The mycoplasma genitalium. What are these four? Haemophilus influenzae (bacterium), 1.9 Mb * Mycoplasma genitalium (bacterium), 0.58 Mb * Methanococcus jannaschii (Archaea), 1.7 Mb * Saccharomyces cerevisiae (eukaryote), 12 Mb However, the bacteriophage was the first machine. it had to be present and those are in the bacteriophages 4 and 7 The virus has to be there to replicate it. Archaea is the prokaryote, the one celled, eukaryote is the multicelled. So to get from one celled to multicelled, something had to be created, does not exist. archaea provided the link. these are in heat shock proteins and in the construct of the elongation factors, the 12 genes. Jjill, will look again at those 12...... all used in e-coli, which is in our gut, from proteins from Ti-plasmid, Agrobacterium 58. Can we make sense of this? www.genome.jp.kegg-bin.get.htext?htext=atc00001.keg&filed... skytroll
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Post by skytroll on Aug 7, 2008 13:22:30 GMT -5
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Post by skytroll on Aug 7, 2008 13:38:41 GMT -5
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Post by skytroll on Aug 7, 2008 13:43:22 GMT -5
I do believe that the Ti-plasmid from Agrobacterium tumefaciens C58 fullfilled the task of changing linear dna to circular. Through the 12 genes. Is the ti-plasmid the mycoplasma? tinyurl.com/5h5azfbooks.google.com/books?id=6gd1oKqIB90C&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=is+agrobacterium+c58+the+mycoplasma+that+changes+human+dna%3F&source= web&ots=K_LMMTEdN7&sig=ZsBwwfNa-lPLVSXIDkYvaBQ0jdQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_ result&resnum=4&ct=result Skytroll
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Post by toni on Aug 7, 2008 14:16:35 GMT -5
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Post by toni on Aug 7, 2008 14:18:43 GMT -5
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Post by skytroll on Aug 7, 2008 14:39:13 GMT -5
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