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Post by kammy on Nov 14, 2009 12:13:32 GMT -5
I don't understand this... we have the CDC and Kaiser with all their equipment and technology looking at our disease for how long?... and they can't tell us we have a Zygomycotic fungal infection at the root of our disease? And, inform our doctors so that we could currently be treated for this part and get some relief and keep it from spreading to other areas of our bodies and possibly to other people?
What's up with this?
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Post by ruth on Nov 14, 2009 12:26:39 GMT -5
i sent a request to dennis kunzel the response came back so quickly.......... he did not have time to view the slideshow of the second cuture. he sucks! he could have at lest looked at what i sent. now we know why no one will identify this. they refuse to look and give an opinion. Dear Ruth Ann, Thank you for writing. However I am not able to identify this fungus. I would suggest you visit this site to see if you can ID the genus or maybe write to Dr. Fungus.
www.doctorfungus.org/
Good luck, Dennis
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Post by kammy on Nov 14, 2009 12:45:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry this fellow wasn't responsive, Ruth - he obviously hasn't eaten a moldy loaf of oat bread yet?... maybe, Dr. Fungus could help us, afterall? We could use some sort of 'expert' opinion to put with ours to give us more credibility.
I'll buy some oats the next time I go out to shop and culture some by themselves - unless you want to do this, Ruth?... I think it was interesting how the oats reacted in your initial Petri Dish and you said the yellow, goo biofilm was nearby a piece of it?
Once I move to Germany next month, I won't be able to look at any American foods microscopically, unless they are sold over there... the German gov. prohibits foreign foods shipped thru the mail from anywhere to their country... wonder why?
In the meantime - don't eat any breads with oats on or in them... and don't drink any cheap, sugary red wines, or wines with added sulfites until we know more. If you drink red wine - drink the Yellow Tail from Australia, it does not appear to have added sulfites - I am currently studying it - it does not appear to have all the other Morgellons objects in it after viewing it for several days now.
I'll buy another foreign brand of red wine and look at it and compile us a list - I'm suspecting most all California wines at this time have added our fungus for fermentation purposes. Until we know more...
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Post by Sidney on Nov 14, 2009 13:04:07 GMT -5
The Dr. Fungus site is a collaborative effort on the part of Dr. Michael Rinaldi, University of Texas, San Antonio, and Dr. Mike McGinnis, University of Texas....and maybe it's the Galveston campus. I can't recall offhand.
Here's this to ponder. More than ten years ago when I spoke with Dr. Rinaldi the first time he admitted he had heard from so many people describing our symptoms that he knew there was something going on, but he didn't know what it was.
So far as I know he communicated with many of us over the years.
I think of Dr. Rinaldi as the top Mycologist in the U.S., but he isn't the only one.
Think about the major State and Private universities and colleges in your own home-state. Pull up their websites, learn whether they have a Mycologist on board, and start sending images.
Be smart about this. They aren't even a little bit interested in how you have suffered as they simply don't have time for it. Just briefly describe your symptoms if you feel that's important, or simply send them a FEW images of what you're growing in a petri dish, describing briefly that it came from hair plucked from your face (if that's the case) skin scrapings you did yourself, or whatever manner you obtained the specimens you placed in the petri dish. Ask them if they can identify the mold growing.
Keep it simple and to the point, and pray for results. Surely, someone will respond.
I think Dennis Kunkel is a good guy, but admit I am very disappointed in his response. His website is incredible and I've always enjoyed looking at his work.
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Post by kammy on Nov 14, 2009 13:07:05 GMT -5
That's a good idea, Ruth - we all need to pitch in and solicit opinions from experts.
I saw in the "What is Rhizopus" article above I posted where potato dextrose agar is IDEAL for culturing Rhizopus. So, once again - go over to eBay and purchase you a pack of 20 or so plastic, sterile Petri Dishes... and the potato agar is in a separate bottle - you just microwave it and pour it in your dishes and let it set up...
This is going to take all of us working to figure out what we should be avoiding in the food and drink department... we can't wait on the CDC to tell us!... we're seeing Rhizopus used in fermentation of cheese, wine, bread, fruit juice drinks, Asian foods such as soy sauce, rice wine, cigarettes... what else? and yes, probably oats and other grains... rice...
Of course, I'm not thinking that ALL breads, wines, etc. are to be avoided... that's impossible, however, certain brands SHOULD be better for us to eat especially while we're soon to be taking the proper medications to rid this fungal aspect. It seems to reason that if we are trying to get well and putting back in what is making us sick - this isn't going to work? We have to know what food brands we are most likely 'allergic' to and avoid them, and if our disease is mostly an overload effect of ingesting this particular fungus... it stands to reason that our bodies will have this reaction forever? Doesn't everyone agree?
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Post by Sidney on Nov 14, 2009 14:41:40 GMT -5
That's a good idea, Ruth - we all need to pitch in and solicit opinions from experts. I saw in the "What is Rhizopus" article above I posted where potato dextrose agar is IDEAL for culturing Rhizopus. So, once again - go over to eBay and purchase you a pack of 20 or so plastic, sterile Petri Dishes... and the potato agar is in a separate bottle - you just microwave it and pour it in your dishes and let it set up... This is going to take all of us working to figure out what we should be avoiding in the food and drink department... we can't wait on the CDC to tell us!... we're seeing Rhizopus used in fermentation of cheese, wine, bread, fruit juice drinks, Asian foods such as soy sauce, rice wine, cigarettes... what else? and yes, probably oats and other grains... rice Thank you so much for posting again about getting the petri dishes and potato agar from eBay. Saves me having to go through all the posts to find it. I want to mention too about the yellow goo. I have it in my petri dishes too. Nasty looking stuff, and so glad you mentioned it. About searching for someone to help identify the mold species we're growing, I certainly didn't intend to be bossy or to ask anyone to limit their search to their own nearby colleges or universities. We can all search randomly for Mycologists both within the U.S. and in other countries. I swear at times I find scientists in other countries are more interested and willing to be helpful than the scientists in the U.S. Are we there yet? No, but we're closer than we were six months ago and we have a huge stake in this mystery, therefore, we're motivated. I started Petri Dish #3 last night. Hopefully, by Monday morning I will see growth and will mail it.
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Post by kammy on Nov 14, 2009 15:41:26 GMT -5
I just did a Google search on: "rhizopus yellow biofilm petri dish photo" hoping to see a photo of the bottom of a Petri Dish... and found this and think it might help those with respiratory problems: www.freepatentsonline.com/7048953.htmlMethods and apparatus to prevent, treat and cure infections of the human respiratory system by pathogens causing severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) "Concentrated vapors from botanical essential oils are inhaled to prevent, treat and cure infections of the respiratory pathogens causing Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (“SARS”). These vapors are inhaled as a practical method to reduce the risks of infection by the pathogens causing SARS in crowded public places. These vapors are also inhaled as a practical method to reduce the risks of infection by unknown, and unpredictable, respiratory pathogens that may be present in public places. The essential oils have antiseptic properties, are safe to inhale, and include, but are not limited to, the essential oils from Eucalyptus globulus, Melaleuca alternifolia, Eucalyptus citriodora, and Eucalyptus radiata. Convenient hand-held inhaler apparatus are provided for the inhalation of concentrated vapors from the antiseptic essential oils and other substances. The antiseptic essential oils have selected antiviral, antibacterial, and antifungal properties." “Mucormycosis (phycomycosis)—a mycosis due to fungi of the order of Mucorales, including species of Mucor, Absidia, and Rhizopus —may develop in patients with poorly controlled diabetes. It is characterized by black, devitalized tissue in the nasal cavity and neurological signs secondary to retrograde thromboarteritis in the carotid arterial system” We've heard some laud the benefits of Eucalyptus Oil... and this backs it up.
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Post by 22122agin on Nov 14, 2009 16:57:32 GMT -5
I would contact Trisha Springstead too to see her ideas on who might be interested in looking at the photos and if cultures are to be sent, who would be interested in doing that and how they should be sent. best regards, 22122
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Post by ruth on Nov 14, 2009 22:53:49 GMT -5
22122 that is an awesome idea. she is a firecracker ;D i know that at 'certain' times of the year...... i get stuff that i don't usually get. does anyone see dictyoselium in their growths? zygomycetes was listed in kilanis' "phase I" anyone who studies fungus can readily identify growth. i think we need to see if the labs that did our "professional" cultures in owned by the same corporation. i've done many blood, sputum, stool, urine, 1 biopsy. these labs are severely inept. they need a shout out (how would we know?...........we are being blackballed from knowledge for some reason
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Post by bannanny on Nov 14, 2009 23:03:00 GMT -5
Love the FG webs as tinsle for the CDC's Christmas tree jeany! I thought we were gonna use the petri dishes to serve them popcorn in tho! I'm gonna have to check out this silica gel stuff... see if I have any pics that resemble it ya know? I can think with pictures better than trying to figure out everything you guys say... not that what you say isn't great. My brain just won't compute it. Oh kammy, I thought you guys were talkin about doing a new thread, not a web page! But if you want a new thread with just pics of the growth in sequence, I can do that for ya. But what do you mean by including "research to verify" part? You know I'm not any good at that stuff! I'm not sure what you mean by this... At times, Rhizopus' Hulle Cell spheres appear as a biofilm in the Petri Dish. Also, on the bottom side of the growth in the dish is yellow biofilm, 'goo' looking.What part would the biofilm be... or can it even be seen this way? Here's my pic from yesterday and my pic from today below it... The white's turning grey and the whole thing's darker in general... still keeps changing from day to day. How long do you think it'll keep growing for anyway? It's the only one I've done so far... only bought 1 kit. They cost 12 bucks here at Home Depot. What do you guys plan on doing with yours? Should I just hold on to mine in case someone wants it for research or something? Guess I could just lock it up somewhere... like in a metal box and bury it. That 2nd pic of Zygorhynchus looks just like toni's white stuff. I wouldn't have a clue if fungus gnats carry slime molds or SM... all I know is the little suckers sure get around! So jeany, you think we're seeing a combination of all 3... Rhizopus, SM bacteria, and silica gel? Wonder what else is in this messed up mix... wonder why we can't kill it with anything too. Thanks about the prayer guys... I felt we were in need of another one. love ya's ~~ bannanny
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Post by ruth on Nov 14, 2009 23:10:13 GMT -5
and so to all, a request to purchase one more "pro-lab" culture dish or culture with potato agar. (walmart didn't have them this week) both ace hardware stores are out of them... culture the phlem plug of deeep lung mucous. use sterile technique. meaning luggie straight onto the culture dish with only a small space open to do this (have the lid mostly on) let us see what our lungs grow. then it is absolute. it may be a good idea to also do ........ a urine using sterile technique. wait for the last of the stream, and let it settle. draw off the sediment from the bottom to the culture dish. let us see what each state cultures out. isn't it written......."seek and ye shall find"
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Post by ANTHILL on Nov 14, 2009 23:53:31 GMT -5
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Post by bannanny on Nov 15, 2009 0:15:51 GMT -5
HA!!! Thank youuuu Ant! I just left a post on the Morgellons Prayer Day thread about how cam keeps leaving me feeling a certain way about food that's so very very wrong! So thank you for finally leaving me not feeling so freakin hungry!
Great idea ruth... I don't have another kit tho and probably won't til after the 1st. They run 12 bucks here at Home Depot and altho that's not alot, it's a bad month for me so it's too much!
hugs ~~ bannanny
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Post by kammy on Nov 15, 2009 9:40:42 GMT -5
Dictyoselium Yes! I see it all the time, I didn't know the name of it. I've been calling it 'steering wheels'... I'll find a photo and post it later. Let me see what it is? I have SM in my tap water, Ruth - I see a pink film on my toilets if I go away and come back, so that might indicate that it's in my water all the time and I bathe with it... it's latching onto my skin and if I have lesions... I doubt that everyone would have SM, but they might? I have a baculoviral system going on in my tap water too... mine is very evident and we don't know how the baculovirus picks up another player, such as SM, and incorporates it - which is what I suspect is happening? The baculoviral system seems to become the central/central around which all of these 'others' are intermingling and working, that's partially what we're studying on the baculo thread - I suspect that if our main issue was a fungal infection - the CDC would have stepped up by now to say something and recognized it? But, then again - who knows their motivations or should I say lack of? I'm hoping that by attacking the fungal aspect - which appears to me to be the worst part of my symptoms along with the bacterial - that this should greatly lessen symptoms (depending where we are in our illness - later stages, it appears the parasitical becomes much worse). Of course, the parasitical part has to be addressed also... but, that's the real mystery part - we're being inhabited by 'invisible' GM 'pixie dust' insects that aren't known to inhabit man, I hope they aren't trying to figure all of this out at once, it could be years before they come forward with an answer. At least, let our doctors know this much so we can get some medicines for the bacterial and fungal for now!... I'll start a sputum experiment soon, also.
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Post by kammy on Nov 15, 2009 13:09:37 GMT -5
Ruth, here are some variety of photographs of what I think is all the same thing but different. I'm not sure if they are Dictyostelium or not, I'll let you guys decide. I just wanted to give you some of the visuals of what I think are it, I have a lot more photos, this is a small sample - the first photo was the first time I saw it and it looked like a wheel, a steering wheel... that's how I started calling it that - this one from human lesion had the silver/rainbow sheen to it. They are large in size, it usually takes 4 or 5 photos to photograph the whole thing at 100x, they are usually circular, but not necessarily. Ear Lesion Debris cultured in nutrient agar, 45 days growth @100x: Tap Water cultured in nutrient agar, 3 days growth @ 100x: Tap Water cultured in nutrient agar, 12 days growth @ 100x: A Blood Smear in nutrient agar, 18 days growth @100x: Rice cultured in nutrient agar, 39 days growth @ 100x: (I have one somewhere that looks more like the above stock photo, I'll try to find it.) I haven't researched it yet, either.
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Post by Sidney on Nov 15, 2009 14:45:26 GMT -5
Kammy, by chance is your first image yellow? Chose this particular abstract only because the patient was not immunocompromised Notice Dr. Michael Rinaldi is the first reference. tinyurl.com/yfa8b3s Abstract Saksenaea vasiformis is an emerging zygomycete species, most often associated with cutaneous, subcutaneous and rhino- orbito-cerebral infections. Herein, we report a case of cutaneous zygomycosis of face caused by Saksenaea vasiformis in a 54-year-old immunocompetent female. The diagnosis was carried out by microscopy using KOH mount, Gram staining, Gomori's methenamine silver staining, hemotoxylin and eosin staining and culture on Sabouraud's Dextrose agar without actidione. Slide cultures were put up on Czapek Dox agar, which showed typical flask-shaped sporangium with rhizoids. The patient was treated successfully with intravenous amphotericin B. Keywords: Cutaneous zygomycosis, immunocompetent host, Saksenaea vasiformis How to cite this article: Baradkar VP, Kumar S. Cutaneous zygomycosis due to Saksenaea vasiformis in an immunocompetent host. Indian J Dermatol 2009;54:382-4 How to cite this URL: Baradkar VP, Kumar S. Cutaneous zygomycosis due to Saksenaea vasiformis in an immunocompetent host. Indian J Dermatol [serial online] 2009 [cited 2009 Nov 15];54:382-4. Available from: www.e-ijd.org/text.asp?2009/54/4/382/57621 Introduction Zygomycetes are fungi that usually cause infections in immunocompromised patients. Zygomycetes contain two orders that contain genera and species of medical importance- Mucorales and the Entomophthorales. In general, the fungi of the order Mucorales cause more severe forms of the disease. [1] Most frequently encountered agents of human zygomycosis is Rhizopus arrhizus, but many other agents of the genera Cunninghamellaceae, Mortierellaceae, Saksenaeceae are also occasionally reported. Since 1980s, nosocomial zygomycosis manifesting as primary skin and wound infections caused by Rhizopus, Absidia, Cunninghamella, Saksenaea vasiformis, and Apophysomyces elegans are often being reported. [1],[2] Zygomycosis may manifest as rhinocerebral, pulmonary, abdominal, pelvic, cuatneous, and disseminated forms. Saksenaea vasiformis is the only known species of the genus Saksenaeceae, which was desribed by Saksenaea in 1953, based upon isolates from soil in India. [3] It has been isolated in soil samples from other geographic areas. The first human infections due to Saksenaea vasiformis were described by Ajello et al. in 1976. [4] Saksenaea vasiformis is most often associated with cuataneous or subcuataneous lesions after trauma. In this report, we describe a case of necrotising fascitis caused by Saksenaea vasiformis in an immunocompetent individual, which responded well to antifungal treatment. Case Report A 54-year-old female presented with ulcerative wound over left cheek of approximately 6 × 6 cm in size for one month [Figure 1]. The patient gave a history of a small nodule three months back, which gradually increased in size before rupturing, following which, there was a whitish purulent discharge from the site. The patient did not give any history of any trauma to the affected part. The patient was nondiabetic, HIV seronegative and there was no history of any major illness in the past or any history suggestive of any immunocompromised state. Examination revealed that the patient was afebrile. The ulcer was slightly tender. Her blood investigations and liver and renal function tests were within normal limits. An emergency slough debridement was done and samples of excised skin and subcutaneous tissue were obtained for bacteriological and fungal culture and for histopathological examination. The material was processed for potassium hydroxide (KOH) preparation, Gram staining, Gomori's methenamine silver nitrate staining (GMS), hematoxylin and eosin staining. Gram stained smear showed broad aseptate hyphae, GMS staining showed brownish asepate hyphae [Figure 2], H and E stain also revealed aseptate hyphae. Bacterial cultures yield no growth of bacteria. There was creamish white cottony growth on Blood agar. There was no growth on Sabouraud's Dextrose (SDA) with actidione, however SDA without actidione kept at 22°C showed luxurious cottony growth after 48 h of incubation. Lactophenol cotton blue (LPCB) preparation from the growth showed only broad aseptate hyphae. No sporulation could be observed. Slide cultures were performed on Corn Meal agar, Czapek Dox agar and were incubated. Sporulation was only observed on Czapek Dox agar showed typical flask shaped sporangia and rhizoids [Figure 3]. Meanwhile, intravenous amphotericin B was started after the initial primary smear reports. The patient responded well to the treatment. Discussion Zygomycosis (mucormycosis) is usually an acute fulminant infection of the immunocompromised host. [1] Cutaneous infections account for 16% of all forms of zygomycosis, with an associated mortality of 16%, compared to 67% for rhinocerebral, 83% for pulmonary, and 100% for disseminated infection. Most common agent is Rhizopus species, although others such as Absidia, Mucor, Rhizomucor are also frequently seen, whereas Saksenaea vasiformis and Apophysomyces elegans are rare pathogens. [1],[2] Cutaneous and subcutaneous zygomycosis is less likely to be associated with severe systemic illness. Compared to other forms, where local predisposing factors such as burn, trauma, surgery, needle sticks and others play a major role, [1],[2] most of the reported infections caused by Saksenaea vasiformis are subcutaneous. Only two cases have been disseminated and one rhinocerebral infection has been reported. [5] Cutaneous infections may be primary or secondary, representing hematogenous dissemination from some other primary site. In primary disease, the infection may occur at the site of barrier break as in surgery or an indwelling catheter. Fatal disseminated infection with Saksenaea vasiformis in an immunocompromised woman has been reported by Torell et al. [7] Subcutaneous infections have been reported in a three-month-old infant and an eleven-year-old thalassemic child, who were successfully treated cases of tissue invasion following traumatic injury. [5] The first case of subcutaneous zygomycosis by Saksenaea vasiformis in India was reported by Padhye et al.[8] in a rice mill worker in 1988. The infection involved the foot with multiple sinuses. Amputataion of the fore part of the foot followed by a split thickness graft and treatment with potassium iodide cured the infection. Primary cutaneous zygomycosis due to Saksenaea vasiformis has subsequently been reported from Chandigarh in 1977 [9] and recently in 2006 by Padmaja et al. [10] from Vishakhapatnam. Saksenaea vasiformis usually grows easily on routine mycological media, but it fails to sporulate on those media. It usually grows and produces characteristic flask-shaped sporangia when it is grown on nutritionally deficient medium such as agar blocks containing hyphal growth on sterile distilled water with the addition of sterilized yeast extract, 1-1.5% agar in saline or Czapek Dox agar. In most reported cases, sporulation was successfully induced using sterile distilled water method, although it may fail occasionally. [11] In the present case, sporulation was induced on Czapek Dox agar after 2 weeks of incubation. In an immunocompetent individual, the infection usually remains localized and responds well to local debridement and antifungal therapy as happened in the present case. In conclusion, Saksenaea vasiformis is increasingly being reported as a cause of subcutaneous zygomycosis. The pattern of infection is variable from mild infection to acute fatal infection, Saksenaea vasiformis has been reported to have favorable outcome after treatment in most of the cases, if early diagnosis is made and treatment is started earlier as reported by Padmaja et al. Hence, when a zygomycete species which fails to sporulate on routine media is isolated, the isolate should be cultured on nutritionally deficient media to induce sporulation so as to enable quick identification and to start treatment properly. References 1. Rinaldi MG. Zygomycosis. Inf Dis Clin North Am 1989
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Post by kammy on Nov 15, 2009 18:15:42 GMT -5
I don't know what color the growth was in the dish, Frito - that was my first experiment and I had quite a bit going on in the dish. Saksenaea vasiformis I have an example that looks just like this one above... here's others that are similar:
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Post by bannanny on Nov 15, 2009 21:11:46 GMT -5
I used to have a pic that looked just like the rice cultured in nutrient agar... but it was a sample from out of my body, not rice! Anyway... just posting my latest pics from today. Just keep gettin grosser by the day eh? hugs ~~ bannanny
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Post by toni on Nov 15, 2009 21:15:39 GMT -5
Hey ALL - idea
Why don't we take a specimen or a couple...
And place them into a slice of bread?
Since this sure looks like a bread and vegetable mold, our specimens should feel right at home!
Place one tiny specimen in each corner of the bread, that way we can see it "begin to sprout out" from each corner in approx 2-3 days.
This sure isn't anything we'd send anywhere, but for the sake of seeing a mold "from within us" take off in growth, this is a real easy way to do it.
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Post by toni on Nov 15, 2009 21:18:44 GMT -5
Wow Bannanny!
That one picture (looks like you're outside) sure came out crisp and clear as a bell!
GREAT job!
Looks like a few things happening in that dish.
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